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and i just gotta ask a couple of the posters here, is speed really supposedly the reason some tkd and other peeps drop their guard while kicking? i don't doubt thats the reasoning, i just always figured it's because those guys went to tourney-oriented schools where punching in the head and striking the groin was frowned up so they didnt bother guarding those areas. wow, you think they'd just train kicking with a guard up until it became just as fast.

i know that sounded critical and i didn't mean it to (not that anyone here cares if i dis peeps who drop their guard), but it's not critical, actually more of shocked incredual guffaw.

Kai0 wrote:

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wow, you think they'd just train kicking with a guard up until it became just as fast.

It won't become just as fast. It just won't. The high guard so prominent today is perfect for boxing, since everything a boxer does is cocked and ready from that posture. But it's not perfect for kicking, wrestling, etc. In a TKD tourney, it's best to evade. Blocking all of that wonky shit is a good way to get your arm mangled.

hmm, my post might have not been clear. It was my stated guess that some schools are point-sparring-tourney-oriented and thus don't have to worry about using a guard. So I think you and I are in total harmony on that point.

But when someone said the guard is dropped for speed at certain schools I interpreted it as an ALTERNATIVE to my theory, instead of in conjunction. I thought they were talking about general martial arts training instead of only point sparring- so my comment was about general martial arts. Obviously i could have misinterpreted his comment. But doesn't it seem silly that I'd say "for that group it's totally unnecessary so they should definitely do it?"

So there's really no debate here unless there's schools that allow guard-dropping on the regular arsenal of kicks during combat or self-defense training. Thinking the speed comment alluded to this is why I suggested developing both speed and a guard.

I'm guessing we all agree that in real altercations it's smart to keep a guard up because the possibility does exist that you may be attacked or countered during your strike or on the comeback. And if you have multiple attackers, striking might be more practical then grappling, and during a kick with out a guard, one is very open from the other assailants. And environments where trouble is common have plenty of obstacles which can prevent evasion (unless it's evading to close the gap for a choke of takedown). Jammed up in a corner, I'm sure we're all ready to have our arms broke or fingers sliced off if the alternative is traumatic internal damage or a slit-open throat.

Guards are shifted into a variety of positions specific to any kick to avoid significantly hindering the speed and movement of the kick while keeping the hands ready to follow up the battle and provide incidental defense. I gotta keep my hands ready for what's next, keep them ready for anything - blocking/parrying/choking/clasping/catching/locking/hooking etc. Some of those things might be follow-ups, but some might be simultaneous during a kick.

Greco-Roman wrestlers do have a guard particular to their style, hands out in front of them at a middle level, ready to both intercept their opponent and launch into their own offense.

But I think you also likely agree with the above, and just in the way I wasn't talking about point sparring I don't think you were talking about combat. I think we were in the same conversation but on two completely different subjects.

As far as ultimately kicking faster without a guard, I totally believe you. After all my personally practiced library of kicks is small, maybe 10, so I don't have credibility when it comes to like 100 other kicks (obviously a few kicks are done universally with a dropping guard, so I only mean kicks with are taught at many schools with a guard and at other without). My badly worded meaning was that if you record your kicking speed at this precise moment, then train well in the same kick without sacrificing guard, you will be able to reach that same speed (obviously it must be the right variation of guard for that particular kick). But when you reach that point, your kick without the guard will be even faster. See what I'm saying? I totally objectively trust in your opinion on unguarded kicking speed being faster, thought I think we can objectively agree the guy keeping a guard will roll into a punch after his kick a lot quicker and be the one prepared to use his arms for nearly any catch counter or strike more quickly.

DragonfighterX wrote:

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I dunno, kicking with a full guard is impractical because most of the time it negates the power of the kick. Try kicking a sandbag as hard as you cans with both hands up in front of your face. The body positioning required for momentum just isn't there so you might as well not kick in that situation at all. Don't forget, kicks are medium-long range attacks, so if you're likely to get pounded in the face while kicking somebody, maybe you shouldn't be kicking.

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you didn't mention what type of kick on that bag. Like i said above, i'm really only talking about kicks that are commonly practiced at many schools with a guard up (front kicks, side kicks, some thrusting kicks, back kicks, low kicks, snapping roundhouse etc.) not kicks that are generally practiced with a dropping guard almost universally like a strong thai round kick. when I throw a thai-style round, i drop my kicking hand back (and my other hand moves out momentarily as well) to gain the most power possible transferred to the kick. most moves that totally commit in directional force weigh the additional power against having an opening if the attack is evaded, but are used successfully with appropriate timing and judgment.

it would be kinda silly of me to assume i know better than the majority of the martial arts world. that's why specifically stated above I'm only talking about kicks that are widely practiced at plenty of schools (possibly a majority of combat-oriented schools) with guard up. I wouldn't debate a point if there was no logos behind it.

Like I also said above there is a variety of guard positions (high, low, high/low, southpaw, tight, extended, etc etc etc - two hands in front of your face is not the only style of guard and your guard can significantly move around and change levels as you move - it is not static). People who usually guard during kicks shift their hands and arms into a different position during the kick that compliments the directional force of the kick and adds momentum but still provides some defense, whether its to the head/neck, ribs, or groin. I mean, does anyone really think I'm talking about doing a spinning back kick where the bottom half of your body spins around and kicks and the top half of your body stays forward in a traditional boxing guard? I am slow, but I do understand the humans being vertebrates thing, lol. The position and shifting of the guard must compliment the kick, as I said above.

For instance, thai push kicks usually keep their traditional high guard during the kicks, while karate and kung fu styles that have some degree (even if subtle) of a high/low guard and angled stance shift into a high guard (yes that traditional boxing guard that people keep focusing on) when throwing front snap or push kicks since a: their chambered knee is now defense against a groin or lower-gut attack and b: the shifting movement of the hands up/forward actually compliments the directional force of the attack. As their knee lowers their hands/arms return to a broader defensive position (or if they decide to land forward they're ready to punch or grapple. Even though I've seen subtle variations in schools, most karate and kungfu guys shift their guard during sidekicks and roundhouses, bringing guard up as the kick is chambered but then twisting the guard, twisting the leading arm down across the ribs (some karate guys extend it more forward almost like a punch, and some kungfu guys twist it into a tighter position sometimes down enough to cover the ribs and groin). The twist provides harmonious momentum, not as much as a strong thai round's arm movments, but like i said, it's a trade off to keep a guard and options. besides I'm generally talking about delivering these kicks as effective yet CONTROLLED KICKS, not COMMITED POWER KICKS. a lot of karate and kungfu schools have a similar guard like their sidekick for their snapping roundhouse. (just fyi the rear hand during both sidekick and snapping roundhouse is generally near the chest centerline or lower face, in balance with the pivot point of the kick. When it comes to the spinning back kick, a lot of kung fu schools will generally say your body is a spinning pole with your attack shooting straight out from the spinning momentum - this is opposed to a ball at the end of a chain being continuously spun in a circle (whipping around in an arc). It's performed with a tight balanced pivot, so a tight high/low guard becomes part of the "pole" and is used for balance. Obviously certain low kicks like "dragon kicks" (inside kicks to the knee) are close range and even though they can be used effectively to stop a fight, they're within punching range. This doesn't mean don't risk throwing the kick, just keep your guard up. A second later he could be on the ground with a broke knee and you could have a sore hand, or he could be on the ground with a broke knee and you could have a broke nose/poked eye, whatever. No biggie, just keep the guard up and do what ya gotta do. I think even the people adamant about not guarding during kicks would agree a guard should be kept during these low short-range kicks though I've already been surprised lol. There are more kicks out there that people practice with a guard and they have a way of shifting their guard for each of those specific kicks. But my other post was already long and boring enough, and this one moreso.

yes if you're *likely* to get pounded in the face while kicking, if you think that's the probability, then yeah, don't kick. But there's always a lot of variables in a fight, and there are situations where a kick is very appropriate but there's still a chance of being attacked simultaneously, being checked (not by a kick from martial artist, but very realistically a clumsy bumrush from a prick versed in horseplay), caught and thrown without being able to grab the guy and counter, knocked over with your body not ready ready for a controlled fall, or having the kick evaded and attacked on the hind-end of your attack. Some schools teach linear fighting with 2-dimensional stances like sport fencers. It's easier to maintain a kicking range in a school like that against a similar opponent. But schools that focus on a large variety of movement angles on a 3-dimensional battle field make obvious how easy it is to quickly change range and enter during a kick.

So as long as my kick does the job, I like the versatility and safety of a guard. My kicks also have the option of opening a closed opponent so I can enter in into close-range to punch or wrap him up because my hands are ready to follow-up. I have only ever resorted to kicking once in an altercation (my first because I was young and stupid and uncontrolled) - I've worked in nightlife industry for nearly a decade so usually it's situations that necessitate restraining people and ushering them out or grounding people until the cops arrive - if it comes to strikes for me, it's escalated to the point of potentially destroying someones body - but even so, I'm just not going to assume that any one of my kicks will end it (intend that sure, but not count on it), and I will be prepared if my kick is somehow negated, opening me to attack.

And the basic truth is I know plenty of people who keep their guard up during front kicks, sidekicks, snapping roundhouse kicks and low round kicks to the knee, back kicks, crescent/slap kicks and thrusting kicks who deliver fast and powerful kicks (enough to serve their purpose in a serious fight) while having that available defense, and these MA student and teachers include numerous cops, SORT (like swat) officers including a SORT commander who runs the Arnis and Kung Fu acdemy I attended long ago, the instructor of the Raleigh PD hand-to-hand training, also a sherrif for another county who taught their PD, marines and army infantry, and a friend who recently retired from being a special forces combatives instructor. Not to mention most any karate or other MA instructors I'm met through seminars such as Hatsumi Soke.

I respect what people are saying about not guarding during kicking because they achieve more speed and power by moving their arms elsewhere. Like i said, the thai round is one of the kicks I train in so I totally agree about that for several kicks. But many other kicks, i find the the difference in momentum between my kick-specific shifting guard and swinging my arms away/back is negligible - both are sufficiently quick and powerful enough to serve their purpose, so I like having the versatility and defense of a guard. But because it's (possibly) been assumed twice that I'm only talking about a traditional western boxing guard for all kicks (namely from eastern martial arts), i'm wondering if people being unfamiliar with the momentum-accommodating guard shifting concept I'm talking about will keep them from making a fair comparison on those basic kicks mentioned.